when young i was playing with a shotgun and killed a bird. I immediately repented and never played with guns again. It had nothing to do with finding god in my heart or society telling me that was wrong. i decided to be "good for goodness sake", i guess you can call it a philosophical stance or maybe something evolving in the human gene.
It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
...then you don't understand the motive found in the heart of someone such as a Biblical Christian...and no offense but I'm not surprised...you are confused by all those who are merely "religious"...and I don't care what "label" that religion has. It's not fear of punishment that motivates us, but love for God and those He created.
Educated people kill. Sophisticated people kill. None of the above will give people a right relationship with each other...only being rightly related to God.
Would the factors you mention lead people to *love their enemies*? Are they part of the "social ties" you mentioned? According to Christ, it has nothing to do with social ties. I think that kind of "concern" or "Love" is reserved for "friends", which Christ had little regard for. "Even the heathen do that" He said. In other words, "Big Deal".
If there is no God, then there is no ultimate overriding "right" or "wrong". Why care what society says?...if it's about *Me being happy before I die* then ultimately I make my own rules...and so do you.
If all we have is the here and now, why have any restraints at all? Just take what you want, use whatever means you have to in order to get what you want. Society is just another "artificial construct" that seeks to limit you.
It would all come down to naked brute force...Whoever is most powerful is the one who sets the rules. This is a schoolyard bully mentality...and I know of one school superintendent who has gone along with this mentality.
In order for people to do what they need to do, they need a change from the inside. A spiritual, literal, change of heart only God can give. Political correctness can't do this; it only addresses the external...it's only a list of rules. As long as people believe they have no ultimate purpose save what they invent on their own, the problems will continue.
Selfishness is the root cause of so much trouble...stealing, etcetera. Worship of Self stems from the effort to fill the "God Shaped Vacuum" with something else other than Christ.
James 4:1 and following says, (My paraphrase) "Why do you kill each other? Why do you fight among yourselves" is it not the war that rages in your soul? You want but you don't have...". The bottom line is that God wants us to come to Him.
Until people do that, the problems will continue. Don't "trust me", trust what God has said.
Tim
I merely quoted Einstein because he did not belief in the same god as you do, he did not believe in Jesus or an afterlife (heaven) or the bible.
You can read his own article here:
http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm.
Einstein believed that seeing god as a person, and percieving him to even have a son is very misguided, and that is just what the bible does.
That said, I do not agree with him on any of this, I am an atheist, I do not believe in any god, be it a cosmic or anthropological. I was pointing out that you are quoting someone who opposed your own religion.
Yes, I understand that. He was no Christian. The point that he, and many others who are heavily involved in the sciences,makes is that there are "fingerprints" for a *someone* who designed things...others have called it evidence of design.
--TIm
Not even was he no christian, he called the idea of a humanised/personal god an the existence of any afterlife silly!
It is not because people of Einsteins statue saw a spirit in the universe that it is there, wanting to see something like that often makes it true...
What you say is very strange, I have been an atheist for 12 years now, and I have never stolen a thing in my life.
I work hard for the little money I have, I love my wife and I am faithful to her.
I treat all human beings alike, regardless of race, skin-color or financial status. I fight against those who think that cruelty to animals is OK and against those who claim that some people are inferior to others because they were born in another country. The irony of that is that many of those that I oppose are religious (mostly christian, some muslim or jewish).
If what you say made any sense, I'd be a lying, stealing murderer who lived in a castle. BTW, so would Richard Stallman (the GNU founder) be.
No, I'm just saying that those things you mentioned are not motive enough to achieve the goal you are looking for much less the higher goal that Jesus set.
You mentioned being an atheist for about 12 years. Well, I would guess that before that you were raised on some sort of absolute, such as the Judeo-Christian ethic. Maybe not a "christian home" but by those kind of guidelines. So was I.
Because of that, we restrain ourselves. Our conciences were trained while we were young.
Problem is today, that's being tossed for moral relativism, which teaches that each person must make up his or her own set of values..."values clarification". If you come along and say that any set of values is right "over and above" any others, you are called a bigot.
My point is that you and I were raised in a way that is bearing a certain amount of good fruit...and even though we are departing from the Judeo-CHristian ethic, we are living off "borrowed capital". As time goes by, you'll see things get far worse than they are already (school shootings, etc.) as the "borrowed capital" is depleted.
I used to work on a University campus up till three years ago. I can tell you, the next generation won't be that way. There are no guidelines (because of moral relativism) that these kids have to follow; they are making up their own. If you tell them that something they are doing is "wrong", they will tell you you have no right to push your values on them.
That is what I was talking about.
The problem is the heart. Jesus pointed this out when he amplified the true meaning of the ten commandments. He said "You've heard it said 'you shall not kill' but I tell you that if you are angry with your brother you are guilty of murder....if you look upon a woman with lust, you have committed adultry." His point was that the HEART is the issue. The corruption of the HEART is what makes us guilty. Murder is a physical act that comes from a heart that hasn't been transformed. The fact that we haven't all killed doesn't change the fact that the "seed" for the act of murder resides in each one of us.
That's why I said what I did about the transforming act of God being the only solution.
Political correctness (no matter how well intended) won't do it, it only effects the outer man, not the heart...and the heart is the problem.
Maybe that makes what I said clearer.
Thanks,
Tim
I was raised only partly catholic (my father is a deist, my mother is catholic).
It shaped me in the manner that my country was and is dominated by catholics, and as an atheist, I have always stood my ground alone.
I never really believed in god or the bible, it always led me to more questions than it provided answers, and the answers it did provide where inconisistent (like the recursive creation myth).
My morals are defined by the fact that I try to treat others the way I wish to be treated by them. It is not because we are just an effect of randomness that I want or need to mess up someones live.
All the more because I believe it is the only one we have!
Well, it sounds like the "ten commandments" were at least a small part of your life...which, I imagine are still at least partly responsible for how you live now.
Just wondering, if you believe that there is no God (and I really don't mean this antagonistically) then where did this sense of "right and wrong" come from? Just random synapse firings?
Romans 1 says that this is "the law of God" written on your heart. In other words, deep inside you know what's right and wrong because God put it there. It's called a 'conscience'.
Again, don't take me wrong; I'm not trying to start something but I do wonder how this works out....
Thanks,
tim
Er, I don't even know the ten commandments...
My sense of right and wrong is determined by the idea that we are all equal, since we're all twists of randomness, one is no better than the other.
My morality is differs greatly on some points with that of christians, I heard about something like 'turning the other cheek', well I never do that. When someone hurts me or my family, I'm on him/her like a ton of bricks.
I also do not believe in blind obedience, to no-one.
HI GVS:
That makes it even more intriguing. Again, without having intellectually known (been aware of) God's law, what you said a few rungs up lines up with it. Again, Romans 1 tells us that God puts "right and wrong" on the human heart. Lots of people smother it, and harden their hearts.
What I see is confirmation of what God has said.
Take care...
TIm
I think you see what you want to see.
You start from a conclusion (that god put moral in the hearts of men), and then interpret everything accordingly.
I do not see proof of that.
Hi Tim,
I happened to stumble on this conversation with gvs. Very interesting subject. The sense of right and wrong may indeed be the result of synapse firing. It is well know that certain parts of our brain are responsible for learning moral and social rules, including the difference between right and wrong. The Romans weren’t as well versed in neurobiology as we are now so you might want to update your knowledge. Have a look at: http://www.nature.com/nsu/991021/991021-6.html
Interestingly religion may also be the result of synaptic activity. Some scientists believe religion is also the result of synaptic activity that originated from the need to translate a very complex world into a simpler, easier to understand model. A filter if you like. Of course you can argue that these mechanisms exist because of god. It is a difficult one: did God create man or did man create God….
Einstein was a great person. Thre is another quote that I also like, maybe you should do a wallpaper out of it.
"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind."
Albert Einstein
Yeah, he knew his stuff even if he did have his quirky personality...besides that just made him more human! I made the picture crooked because it fit my impression of him!
Tim
To me Einstein represents a scientist with a heart -- something noticeably lacking in many. It's a shame that so many people tend to remember him for Atom bombs. In reality, he was a staunch pacifist.
Yup!
The other day on the radio, I heard a story of something that allegedly happened to him on a train trip. He was unable to produce his ticket for the ticket agent. He kept looking for it but the agent finally said "That's ok, Mr Einstein, we know you have a ticket." The agent walked away and, turning around, saw him on the floor of the train car looking for the ticket he was so far unable to find. The agent again reassured him that there was no need for concern. Albert Einstein said "Well, I know I had the ticket, but I can't remember where I was going!".
Gotta love him!
Tim
..actually, I think I need to make a small correction...He didn't say "I know I had it..." I believe the correct version was something like "I know, but I can't remember where I was going..."
Doesn't make much difference...but I wanted to point that out.
My wife says that this sounds like me...!
I was tempted to use a picture of him sticking his tongue out but figured it'd be overkill...!
Tim
I really like what you've done with the colored bar; the 3-D and shadowing effects are sweet! Good quote too.
Hope your trumpets are playing a nice tune today. :)
Ratings & Comments
26 Comments
when young i was playing with a shotgun and killed a bird. I immediately repented and never played with guns again. It had nothing to do with finding god in my heart or society telling me that was wrong. i decided to be "good for goodness sake", i guess you can call it a philosophical stance or maybe something evolving in the human gene.
It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
...then you don't understand the motive found in the heart of someone such as a Biblical Christian...and no offense but I'm not surprised...you are confused by all those who are merely "religious"...and I don't care what "label" that religion has. It's not fear of punishment that motivates us, but love for God and those He created. Educated people kill. Sophisticated people kill. None of the above will give people a right relationship with each other...only being rightly related to God. Would the factors you mention lead people to *love their enemies*? Are they part of the "social ties" you mentioned? According to Christ, it has nothing to do with social ties. I think that kind of "concern" or "Love" is reserved for "friends", which Christ had little regard for. "Even the heathen do that" He said. In other words, "Big Deal". If there is no God, then there is no ultimate overriding "right" or "wrong". Why care what society says?...if it's about *Me being happy before I die* then ultimately I make my own rules...and so do you. If all we have is the here and now, why have any restraints at all? Just take what you want, use whatever means you have to in order to get what you want. Society is just another "artificial construct" that seeks to limit you. It would all come down to naked brute force...Whoever is most powerful is the one who sets the rules. This is a schoolyard bully mentality...and I know of one school superintendent who has gone along with this mentality. In order for people to do what they need to do, they need a change from the inside. A spiritual, literal, change of heart only God can give. Political correctness can't do this; it only addresses the external...it's only a list of rules. As long as people believe they have no ultimate purpose save what they invent on their own, the problems will continue. Selfishness is the root cause of so much trouble...stealing, etcetera. Worship of Self stems from the effort to fill the "God Shaped Vacuum" with something else other than Christ. James 4:1 and following says, (My paraphrase) "Why do you kill each other? Why do you fight among yourselves" is it not the war that rages in your soul? You want but you don't have...". The bottom line is that God wants us to come to Him. Until people do that, the problems will continue. Don't "trust me", trust what God has said. Tim
I merely quoted Einstein because he did not belief in the same god as you do, he did not believe in Jesus or an afterlife (heaven) or the bible. You can read his own article here: http://www.sacred-texts.com/aor/einstein/einsci.htm. Einstein believed that seeing god as a person, and percieving him to even have a son is very misguided, and that is just what the bible does.
That said, I do not agree with him on any of this, I am an atheist, I do not believe in any god, be it a cosmic or anthropological. I was pointing out that you are quoting someone who opposed your own religion.
Yes, I understand that. He was no Christian. The point that he, and many others who are heavily involved in the sciences,makes is that there are "fingerprints" for a *someone* who designed things...others have called it evidence of design. --TIm
Not even was he no christian, he called the idea of a humanised/personal god an the existence of any afterlife silly! It is not because people of Einsteins statue saw a spirit in the universe that it is there, wanting to see something like that often makes it true...
What you say is very strange, I have been an atheist for 12 years now, and I have never stolen a thing in my life. I work hard for the little money I have, I love my wife and I am faithful to her. I treat all human beings alike, regardless of race, skin-color or financial status. I fight against those who think that cruelty to animals is OK and against those who claim that some people are inferior to others because they were born in another country. The irony of that is that many of those that I oppose are religious (mostly christian, some muslim or jewish).
If what you say made any sense, I'd be a lying, stealing murderer who lived in a castle. BTW, so would Richard Stallman (the GNU founder) be.
No, I'm just saying that those things you mentioned are not motive enough to achieve the goal you are looking for much less the higher goal that Jesus set. You mentioned being an atheist for about 12 years. Well, I would guess that before that you were raised on some sort of absolute, such as the Judeo-Christian ethic. Maybe not a "christian home" but by those kind of guidelines. So was I. Because of that, we restrain ourselves. Our conciences were trained while we were young. Problem is today, that's being tossed for moral relativism, which teaches that each person must make up his or her own set of values..."values clarification". If you come along and say that any set of values is right "over and above" any others, you are called a bigot. My point is that you and I were raised in a way that is bearing a certain amount of good fruit...and even though we are departing from the Judeo-CHristian ethic, we are living off "borrowed capital". As time goes by, you'll see things get far worse than they are already (school shootings, etc.) as the "borrowed capital" is depleted. I used to work on a University campus up till three years ago. I can tell you, the next generation won't be that way. There are no guidelines (because of moral relativism) that these kids have to follow; they are making up their own. If you tell them that something they are doing is "wrong", they will tell you you have no right to push your values on them. That is what I was talking about. The problem is the heart. Jesus pointed this out when he amplified the true meaning of the ten commandments. He said "You've heard it said 'you shall not kill' but I tell you that if you are angry with your brother you are guilty of murder....if you look upon a woman with lust, you have committed adultry." His point was that the HEART is the issue. The corruption of the HEART is what makes us guilty. Murder is a physical act that comes from a heart that hasn't been transformed. The fact that we haven't all killed doesn't change the fact that the "seed" for the act of murder resides in each one of us. That's why I said what I did about the transforming act of God being the only solution. Political correctness (no matter how well intended) won't do it, it only effects the outer man, not the heart...and the heart is the problem. Maybe that makes what I said clearer. Thanks, Tim
I was raised only partly catholic (my father is a deist, my mother is catholic). It shaped me in the manner that my country was and is dominated by catholics, and as an atheist, I have always stood my ground alone.
I never really believed in god or the bible, it always led me to more questions than it provided answers, and the answers it did provide where inconisistent (like the recursive creation myth).
My morals are defined by the fact that I try to treat others the way I wish to be treated by them. It is not because we are just an effect of randomness that I want or need to mess up someones live.
All the more because I believe it is the only one we have!
Well, it sounds like the "ten commandments" were at least a small part of your life...which, I imagine are still at least partly responsible for how you live now. Just wondering, if you believe that there is no God (and I really don't mean this antagonistically) then where did this sense of "right and wrong" come from? Just random synapse firings? Romans 1 says that this is "the law of God" written on your heart. In other words, deep inside you know what's right and wrong because God put it there. It's called a 'conscience'. Again, don't take me wrong; I'm not trying to start something but I do wonder how this works out.... Thanks, tim
Er, I don't even know the ten commandments...
My sense of right and wrong is determined by the idea that we are all equal, since we're all twists of randomness, one is no better than the other.
My morality is differs greatly on some points with that of christians, I heard about something like 'turning the other cheek', well I never do that. When someone hurts me or my family, I'm on him/her like a ton of bricks.
I also do not believe in blind obedience, to no-one.
HI GVS: That makes it even more intriguing. Again, without having intellectually known (been aware of) God's law, what you said a few rungs up lines up with it. Again, Romans 1 tells us that God puts "right and wrong" on the human heart. Lots of people smother it, and harden their hearts. What I see is confirmation of what God has said. Take care... TIm
I think you see what you want to see. You start from a conclusion (that god put moral in the hearts of men), and then interpret everything accordingly.
I do not see proof of that.
Hi Tim, I happened to stumble on this conversation with gvs. Very interesting subject. The sense of right and wrong may indeed be the result of synapse firing. It is well know that certain parts of our brain are responsible for learning moral and social rules, including the difference between right and wrong. The Romans weren’t as well versed in neurobiology as we are now so you might want to update your knowledge. Have a look at: http://www.nature.com/nsu/991021/991021-6.html Interestingly religion may also be the result of synaptic activity. Some scientists believe religion is also the result of synaptic activity that originated from the need to translate a very complex world into a simpler, easier to understand model. A filter if you like. Of course you can argue that these mechanisms exist because of god. It is a difficult one: did God create man or did man create God….
Everyone who worship science in his life will end up like Faust. -------------- "Faust" Goethe
nice work
Einstein was a great person. Thre is another quote that I also like, maybe you should do a wallpaper out of it. "Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind." Albert Einstein
Yup! Read it! Have it! Tim
nice wallpaper! I always liked Einstein.
Yeah, he knew his stuff even if he did have his quirky personality...besides that just made him more human! I made the picture crooked because it fit my impression of him! Tim
To me Einstein represents a scientist with a heart -- something noticeably lacking in many. It's a shame that so many people tend to remember him for Atom bombs. In reality, he was a staunch pacifist.
Yup! The other day on the radio, I heard a story of something that allegedly happened to him on a train trip. He was unable to produce his ticket for the ticket agent. He kept looking for it but the agent finally said "That's ok, Mr Einstein, we know you have a ticket." The agent walked away and, turning around, saw him on the floor of the train car looking for the ticket he was so far unable to find. The agent again reassured him that there was no need for concern. Albert Einstein said "Well, I know I had the ticket, but I can't remember where I was going!". Gotta love him! Tim
lol! never heard that one
..actually, I think I need to make a small correction...He didn't say "I know I had it..." I believe the correct version was something like "I know, but I can't remember where I was going..." Doesn't make much difference...but I wanted to point that out. My wife says that this sounds like me...! I was tempted to use a picture of him sticking his tongue out but figured it'd be overkill...! Tim
I really like what you've done with the colored bar; the 3-D and shadowing effects are sweet! Good quote too. Hope your trumpets are playing a nice tune today. :)